Episode 69 Transcript
Heather (00:04.559)
Kelly, welcome to the show. I'm so excited you're here. How's it going?
Kelly (00:08.998)
Thanks, Heather. Thanks for having me. I'm very excited about this conversation with you.
Heather (00:14.699)
Me too. And for those of you watching on YouTube or socials, and you're watching the reels, there are books for Hein Kelly. Lots and lots and lots of books. Hmm. I wonder how many of those books you've been involved in. Have you actually been involved in a lot of helping?
Kelly (00:31.75)
Yeah, this is my bookshelf. So everything you see behind me, I've had some kind of hand in, yeah.
Heather (00:40.271)
There you go, perfect, love it. We're gonna talk about that, definitely. We're gonna talk a little bit about your business and how you help people and how you're a bit different from others out there, which I already know, two cool reasons how you're different and we'll talk about that. I always like to dive in straight away some good tangible tips though. So that is what we're gonna start with, tips. Okay, so think about, we could take this one of two ways. It can either be for you and your business or for just a general theme and your amazing community that you've built. When...
Kelly (00:56.846)
Thank you.
Heather (01:08.799)
you or your community is going through times of growth in their business and higher stress than normal. Perhaps a little bit of that sort of hustle mentality kicks in. What are three great little tangible tips or tools that you can recommend to help come back down to the planet and just get back into your body and survive those moments of overwhelm?
Kelly (01:31.042)
Awesome. Oh God, I feel like we could go for 30 minutes on this. So I think the first thing first and foremost for me is actually having a really clearly defined goal. So even like for me in my business, you know, three years ago, I set a goal to go away for a year and work like 20 hours out of the year. And it's been such a good forcing function.
everything that I do, that even if I'm not successful in 20 hours, whether it's 40 hours or 80 hours or whatever that looks like, it has just created such a great decision matrix for everything I decide on, whether it's in my personal life, my professional life, it's all aligned to that goal. So I think having that, you know, some kind of tangible, clear vision and goal, especially if you're someone who
Heather (02:20.248)
Nice.
Kelly (02:28.146)
runs a business for their lifestyle first and foremost. That's the biggest thing that I think really makes a difference. The second thing I think is being conscious of time, effort, where you're spending your energy. So for me, I'm an introvert. I love deep work. That's my happy space. And so I'm really stringent with how I plan out my weeks. I basically do my deepest, most valuable work.
at the start of the week and I gradually open up to conversations, podcasts like this, coaching clients, things like that, other stuff that takes my energy in different directions later towards the week. So I'm always really clear on where is my energy best spent and where am I going to be happiest first and foremost and I always prioritize that over everything else.
Heather (03:18.531)
Yeah.
Kelly (03:21.642)
And then I think the third thing would be coming at it from probably a client's perspective, because as you can imagine, most people who decide to write books, one of their biggest blockers is often, I don't have time. I don't have enough time to do this project. And I think you have to remember that time is finite. And it's actually what you're really saying is that I don't value this project enough. I'm not placing a high enough.
Heather (03:39.547)
Totally.
Kelly (03:51.246)
priority is not a priority in my life, so I'm not going to make room for it. If it's something you really want to do, then something has to give, you have to take something else, there has to be like some kind of sacrifice. So I have to get people to think about, well, what are you willing to sacrifice in order to get that in goal, instead of being one of those people that's hustling through trying to do 25,000 things at once to achieve one objective.
Heather (04:18.627)
so spot on. I spoke to Kate Toon who's a copywriter and released a book recently too and she was just saying like people you have to be honest with your time like how much time you have I think we all just sort of try and cram way too much in and so I love that you said that you know it's just look at what you have look at your lifestyle that you want and then yeah look at your priorities and you can move things around according. Good tips so
Kelly (04:41.43)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Heather (04:45.379)
We're going to talk a little bit about the book side of what you do, because we've mentioned books quite a few times and everyone's like probably going, what do you, what does she do? So let's start with that. So I want a little bit of backstory though. I always like to know like how you got to where you are. So first of all, first question is how long have you been in a space of being a book coach? And then the second question is how did you get there?
Kelly (04:53.646)
I'm sorry.
Kelly (05:07.906)
Cool, so I've been doing this over a decade now. It was an organic kind of thing. I've been, you know, in the past I was a journalist. I worked in education. I was actually a travel writer for a number of years. And I was working in a co-working space and someone put up on Yammer, which is kind of like the work version of Facebook.
that they were writing a book and was there anyone that could help them? And I thought, oh, I can do that. I've worked in education. Like when I was in education, I was working with subject matter experts, helping them take their knowledge out of their head and actually turn it into study materials and MBA resources people could actually use and digest. So I thought, okay, I could do that and stuck my hand up. And then we had the chance to pitch it to a publisher and it got picked up.
Heather (05:45.019)
Okay.
Heather (05:54.377)
No, nice.
Kelly (06:03.134)
And then it kind of steamrolled from there because my clients started recommending me to everybody and the publisher found out about me and brought me in and said, ooh, we think we've got a whole bunch of authors that need your help. And then I sort of decided, okay, well, I wonder what would happen if I just said to everybody I was just writing books, just helping around books and it just kind of went gangbusters. So it kind of...
Heather (06:26.18)
Wow.
Kelly (06:26.998)
She actually, that client, Gabrielle Dolan, is my longest serving client, so I've worked with her now on like seven books. Yeah, so it's pretty cool. But back then, book coaching wasn't actually really a thing. And traditionally, people will come to an editor when they've already got a manuscript, and that was happening a lot, and that's often too late.
Heather (06:35.102)
Seven.
Kelly (06:56.154)
because there's a lot of foundational aspects that you need to understand. So I was taking people back to the start, reworking a lot of stuff to get it kind of right. So yeah, it's interesting where the space has gone now because I actually found the term from someone in America and I was like, oh, that's what I do. And now there's heaps of people who do it. So yeah, it's really funny how the industry has shifted and changed in that regard.
Heather (06:56.755)
Mmm.
Heather (07:23.219)
It is, it is. Cause I, being my background being with working with lots of speakers in the past, um, I do remember that the traditional publishing where you get the manuscript, you might have a ghost writer and then you go into the editing phase. And then like, it's such a process. So I'd like to know more around your process. And, um, what would be cool actually is if you could think of a case study and I'm more than happy for you to do a shout out if you want to that person, or you can keep
Kelly (07:34.382)
Mmm.
Heather (07:51.287)
You know, keep the name secure. Um, but talk me through literally how you do what you do from start to finish.
Kelly (08:01.647)
Yeah, well, you could probably ask any client because the process that I go through, it doesn't matter if I'm working one on one with a person or if I'm working in the community with a person. The process is always the same. And so you have to start by actually having a strategy for your book. And they said that there are kind of three, four even key pillars that people
get wrong first and foremost because they think about writing first up. And for me in my process, you don't actually get to writing until quite a way along. You've got to have a strategy for what you're doing. You've really got to understand how your book is going to fit in the marketplace, how it's going to align to everything you're doing in your business. You have to have a really clear idea of who you're targeting, what your reader is. You need to understand how a book is structured.
then you need to understand how each and every chapter is structured in order to formulate, you know, really clear linear ideas. And it's only once you've got these foundational pieces into place that you can actually think about writing. So once you've got a pretty detailed plan for your book, it's that plan that allows you to write and write quite fast. So my approach is often as well flipping things. So it's not about
what goes in a book, but it's what stays out. Because as a subject matter expert, especially if it's your first book, your danger is you're gonna try and jam everything you know into one book. So once we're really clear around how we're using it, who we're targeting, what the key message is, you can actually work out what content should be left alone and which content you're actually building those blocks. So that's what then allows you and sets you up for writing.
I call it the first shitty draft. You know, getting that dirty draft down quite quickly because for me as well, it's the real work is in the editing, it's in the refining. So once you've got words on a page, you can work with them. But I think for a lot of people, it's when they're stuck in your head that people are working around in circles. So my approach is really about helping people articulate those points, get it down on the page and then we can work with that once it's on the page.
Heather (09:56.707)
Hehehehe
Yeah.
Kelly (10:25.546)
And then, and only then do you sort of decide or make those decisions and choices around your publishing options, design, marketing, how you're getting it out there, how you're going to leverage it, things like that. So there are two kind of methods. The process is always the same. But sometimes I will work one on one with a client. So like Oscar Trimboli, Penny Lacaso.
I've put pictures together, I've still got a hundred percent pitch rate with publishers, so that might be the first objective for some people is to actually...
Heather (11:01.251)
Stop right there. A hundred percent pitch, right? Just take a moment. Um, how many publishers are we talking about that you have this with?
Kelly (11:11.222)
Oh, look, I'm not doing it all the time. You know, like I'm very selective about the books that are and the authors that are going to suit a traditional publishing method. So for me, every author is different. And every author because every business is different, your objectives are always different. And I don't believe that there's a one size fits all approach for publishing and writing a book.
For me, it's about understanding the author in whatever capacity I work with them. What are their goals? What are their objectives? And what is gonna be the best method and avenue that's gonna be suitable for them? Publishing is a really hard industry. It's often a gated closed industry. Publishing, traditionally as well, there's very limited bookshelf space. It's hard. And it really has to...
suit the right business and the right business person as well. So I think that's probably one of my skills is really knowing I can, I can tell pretty quickly someone that I can pitch in and someone who's, who's method that's, that's going to work for. So, and I would never sell someone down that route if I didn't feel really confident that was going to be right for them. Yeah.
Heather (12:33.119)
Excellent. I want to talk to you about strategy. So you said you start your process with strategy. So what I'd love to hear is a few ideas or examples of the people you've worked with. What was the book for? Why did they want a book?
Kelly (12:47.05)
Yeah, that's a good question. Because this is for me one reason why I'm a bit different to a lot of other coaches in this industry. So there's a lot of stuff out there at the moment, there's a lot of people selling you down that route that you should write a book to position yourself as an expert in your field. That for me is the result of writing a really good book. It's not why we should write one.
So your why and your purpose really needs to be about, you know, what do you want to get out of it? Like meaningful work means that you need to be behind this thing 100%. It's a business product. And so I think for me as well, it's not just about the intangible result of having a book on your bookshelf. What you don't realize right now is all the stuff that you're gonna get.
from actually undergoing the process. So I have clients who have remodeled their whole business while working on their book. They've scored TEDx talks, they've been to conferences, they've put workshops together, online courses, all of this kind of stuff, even before their book's even in their hands, because they're working through that message and that process.
and you can start leveraging that message and all the stuff that comes out of it through the process. So I think for me, it's really about what would make, there's two components. I think about objective and I think about strategy. So objectives for me are small, tangible wins. As you're going through this process, what can you also develop from it? Is it about you wanna do that TEDx talk? Is it about you putting a workshop together?
Heather (14:11.672)
Yeah.
Kelly (14:34.494)
what could the book and the process help you achieve along the way? And then that strategic piece is kind of the culmination of all those little objectives that you're going to and those little wins that are going to happen. So are you going to become the go-to person on this particular topic? Do you want to reshape your business so you're the resilience person or the this? So I think that's really important. We think about this big lofty goal and
I won't lie, it can take six, nine, 12 months, even longer sometimes since you've got a book in your hand. So it's also being really clear on those little tangible wins that you can get along the way. That's what really makes a great purpose.
Heather (15:19.359)
Yeah, love it. Let's talk about the shitty draft. The first draft that comes up. So with that, with that, like, how do, how do people get that out of their head? Do you have like tips? Obviously when you're working with your clients, you're going to guide them on this whole process, but where does somebody start with this?
Kelly (15:23.578)
I'm sorry.
Kelly (15:40.014)
Yeah, and also I should add the second draft is like the second less shit draft. Yeah, I think I think it is being clear on some of these things before you launch into writing. So a lot of people will do the I'll sit in the cafe and map out my contents page on the back of a napkin. And once I've got my contents page, then I'm right.
Heather (15:46.275)
There you go. Yeah, so it's a process.
Kelly (16:07.782)
And it doesn't work like that. Like you've got to get really clear. If I can give people one tip, two tips, get really clear on who your reader is. Like literally one real person you're going to give your book to. And you are engaging them from the get-go. You've got to create a journey for them through the book. And then you've got to drive that.
you know, behaviour behind it for them to purchase the book or for you to, you know, what do you want them to do once they've got the book in their hands? People think, and I think this is probably a classic business mistake as well. It's like, we want to be all things to all people, but the more niche and the more micro and the more specific you can get, then the more you're going to have that ripple effect, you know, and people are going to take something.
because that's going to resonate with them, that you had no idea, you had no intention of affecting that person in the first place. So you need to get really clear and specific to them. And I can't stress that enough because I think as well as business owners, our tendency is that, you know, we want to share our knowledge and our experience with other people, but you've got to remember that books are about the person reading it.
And it's gotta be a choice about what is gonna be useful for them, where are they at, where are their needs? It's not what we want to tell them. And I see this a lot, it's such a subtle, but really big difference that there's a shift when people actually get that. And yeah, so 100%, if you're gonna start, before you even get into mapping that idea out, it's getting really clear on who your reader is.
And then I won't dig into it too much, but the second step as well is actually understand publishing. Like, get out there, look at other books, look at how that industry works. I think for me, you know, and this is what I love and why I think our community's quite different. It's, these things are separated, but you need three things. You need to have publishing industry knowledge because as a...
Kelly (18:20.386)
person who's gonna write a book, you are entering into a business and it is the business of publishing and it is the business of selling books. And so you actually need to know how that industry operates so that you can navigate within that. The second thing is there's the editorial craft and you could go to like the CAE or I don't know, all the writer centers and stuff like that and learn the craft of writing, but you won't understand that, they won't give you that publishing know-how.
And so you've got to have those two things at play. But equally, the third thing is you've got to have some business know-how. Because you are the driver behind this book. And you'll see this and you'll hear this a lot now in the publishing industry. I think the industry is waking up to the fact that soon as you decide to write a book, you're entering into that business. And you have to be a business behind that book.
And I think that's a really new thing for publishing. But for me, it's having those three things, they're interconnected things. You've gotta have know how that industry operates. You gotta have the business know how to be able to get the, understand the market and get it into your reader's hands. And then you've gotta understand how a book even works and how you put that together. So it's really important to have those three things at play.
Heather (19:43.531)
And that's what you do, right? To help shortcut and help people that want to do a book. Is that kind of the piece you bring? Yeah, because I was just thinking, who has time for that? There's gonna be so many people that they're like, yeah, I want to write a book. And the questions would be first, what goes into it? But yeah, I don't know. I don't know anything about it. So with a couple of questions on that, actually, first thing that came to my mind is, and we're gonna talk about you as an editor now.
Kelly (19:48.774)
Yeah, 100%.
Heather (20:12.151)
Does the person have to be a good writer? Can they use a ghost writer? Like, because I all the time in my space, when I'm building websites and doing social media marketing for people, they're like, well, what if I suck in front of the camera? Like there's workarounds. There's always workarounds in my space. So from you, your perspective, yeah, do they have to be a good writer? Are there workarounds?
Kelly (20:30.238)
Yeah, great question. No, you don't have to be a good writer to write a good book. Absolutely not. So my first client, you know, I was mentioning Gabrielle Dolan, failed English, was always told that she was a terrible writer. You know, she's kind of your classic. Charlotte Blair, her book has just come out. She's dyslexic, always got told that she'd never, you know, she'd never amount to anything because she couldn't write, couldn't formulate things.
Heather (20:34.885)
Ha ha ha.
Kelly (20:55.19)
This for me is the trick with writing. So we think about writing, but words for me is the icing on the cake. Where you go first in this and what I help people do to unpack their commercial viability of their idea, it's about your thoughts, your intellectual property, your ideas. And once you have that foundation in place, that's what editors are awesome for. They can help you fix up, you know, phrasing and language and stuff like that, but it's so, they can't.
they can't give you your ideas. And so that's the currency in the book. That's what, you know, it's like building a house. It's, you gotta have a floor. You gotta be connected to the water. You gotta, you know, have a toilet. You know, you gotta have these basics down pat first, but they're not really taught that well. But there's help for the words and the language. Letitia has just published a book and English is, she's French, English is her second language. Robert's.
Heather (21:53.111)
Love it.
Kelly (21:53.674)
I think English is his third language. Verena is like her fourth language. You know, like it's a fear, but when you know the right avenues and you have the right people around you, it really is, you know, it's not a setback at all. It's just reframing and actually understanding that there's more high value things.
And once you understand that and you have that structure in place, then there are other people as well who can help finesse it and make that sing for you later.
Heather (22:27.379)
Oh, such a good answer. And you said earlier as well that you are an editor and that's quite a rarity. That's quite something that's different from what, you know, you do or people in your space. So talk to me around that. Like, do you actually do the editing yourself?
Kelly (22:44.578)
So I would call myself a developmental editor, which means that my sweet spot is the beginning phase. What is a good idea? What is, how do you make that commercial? It's kind of like, I don't call myself a business coach in any kind of capacity, but it is bringing a business brain to a book. And then working out as well, like what is that structure around the logical argument?
Heather (22:48.091)
Okay.
Heather (22:51.739)
Got it.
Kelly (23:10.85)
So I can do all facets of editing to finessing, you know, that copy editing, the, you know, all the little tips and tricks and details, but my love and my sweet spot is the beginning phase. So I do a lot less of the copy editing or the line by line these days. I do work with, when I do a pitch for someone, quite often, well actually always, they will stay on and they'll work with me in a one-on-one capacity so that when
They're handing over their manuscript. They're handing over a really tight manuscript that's then essentially going through a proofread before it's published. But most of the time, especially in the community now, I sort of know everything. I know everything from what it takes to get an idea out of your head into what it takes to get it into your readers' hands. And that's really important. But my expertise is that beginning phase. So what I do and what's kind of unique, what I've been able to do through the course of my career.
is create really good direct relationships into publishing houses with the right copy editors, with the right hybrid publishers, self publishers, marketing people, PR people, all the other experts that have, you know, own some slice in this publishing pie. And I bring those people into my community so people have those direct relationships themselves. So they're not all just learning from me, it's also learning from my network.
Heather (24:40.123)
Very cool. So we're going to talk. I want to stop on the community piece right here too, because community is like everything. I just was actually speaking a couple days ago up in the Gold Coast and every single speaker on this stage, including myself, spoke about the power of community and after, especially after the pandemic, everyone is desperate for touch again and just human conversations. And you mentioned to me you have this community and you just start talking about it here. So
Talk to me about your community. What is it? How does it work?
Kelly (25:11.626)
Yeah, so we're called the expert author community. And I think what I love about it is I didn't set out to build a community. I didn't suddenly go, okay, we need this. I'm gonna build this for the people. It has grown organically over a period of time where I've listened to people. I've learned from them. I've seen what they've resonated with. And I think a pivotal moment was actually hearing, you know,
Heather (25:21.999)
Of course. Yeah.
Kelly (25:38.926)
It's kind of that classic, you think people are coming to you to learn how to write a book but actually what they were taking away from being around other authors was, I feel a sense of belonging. Writing is a really vulnerable space to play in. I've got, I'm opening myself up to criticism. I'm learning how to use my voice in a way I haven't used before. And that was really eye opening for me. I was like, whoa, like that is not something, I think it's like culture of an organization.
It's not something you can build. It is created from the people within it. And then you need to learn how to harness that. So what I love about our community is now we are part course or part curriculum, which is the process that I've taught through. Step by step, people will walk through to develop their books. It is connections with industry experts. So there's myself.
There's obviously these other elements, the people that I bring in for publishers and things for other people to have contact with. There's coaching with me. So, you know, that's what plugs in the knowledge gaps, being continually motivated, knowing you can have your questions asked and answered. And then there's connections with other authors because what I've seen is it's not just about me. Yes, it's my experience, but it's actually being with people.
like you who have undergone similar things and you need to learn from their experiences in terms of what you will or even what you won't do. And so that's kind of in essence what we are. And yeah it's kind of interesting. I think community is interesting in terms of you know I think there's a lot of people saying they run communities but
Heather (27:10.604)
Yeah.
Kelly (27:29.346)
Does it actually work like a community? You know, it's different from being on a Facebook community or a Facebook group. We're a dedicated community platform. We're not on Facebook. For me, I see my role as making a great environment for people's ideas to thrive. And I'm just a facilitator of that environment. Yeah.
Heather (27:49.819)
Love it. Oh, how long again have you been doing the community piece?
Kelly (27:55.466)
Um, I, it's shifted and changes over, over the years, but we've been on this dedicated platform and creating in this way for like just over a year. Um, and it's really taken off, um, like since we've moved over. Um, and I'm super excited by all the stuff that we've got going on in there. So, you know, we had a book launch on Friday and you know, you're talking about face to face.
Heather (28:15.854)
Ugh.
Yeah.
Kelly (28:20.162)
We had a book launch on Friday in Melbourne, but it was a Sydney author. So she flew all the way to Melbourne for a launch. And there was like 10 to 12 of us who went for, you know, hadn't met before, but we all went to this author's launch. It was awesome.
Heather (28:33.679)
That's so cool that you're creating this. Oh my gosh. So, wow. So can people choose, can they work with you one on one and then also choose the group sort of thing?
Kelly (28:44.518)
Yeah, that's a great question. So my preference is always for people to start in the group first. And the reason why and then they get the option to stick up their hand for one on one. We have a couple of like special exclusive classes within the group that are optional extras, like well, I'll feed back on their work and stuff. But the reason why it makes sense to join in the community first is if I was going to do a session with someone, I would say do this, this and that, then they would go away and do it. Whereas
Heather (28:50.979)
nice.
Kelly (29:14.51)
for pretty much the same price, you join in the community, you've got access to all of this stuff, you've got the process there. And then it makes more sense to stick up your hand for one-on-one because you've already raised the benchmark forward. So I can, once you've got that understanding and that learning, I can, once you're ready for that one, I can accelerate you even further, rather than just telling you, hey, do this, and then giving you a round of feedback on it. So.
There are absolutely options for working one-on-one with me and getting that more tailored feedback But my preference is always come into the group experience what we're about Understand what you're going to go through because I think you're Expec you know, you don't know what you don't know Learn the what the process is and then when you stick up your hand for one-on-one We can get you way further than you could when you when you first start out
Heather (30:08.623)
Brilliant. And where do people actually go to start this process of going into the group and maybe doing some work with you if they want to?
Kelly (30:15.758)
Yeah, come over to expert author.community. We're about to open up our next into we have two intakes December and June. So we'll be running an open house session soon so you can actually meet some members, meet our guests and get a sense for what it's about. So
Heather (30:33.339)
I really like what you're building. It's, yeah, it's, I get that it's such a great place to be because trying to launch anything on your own is, it's hard work and having everyone that's on that journey with you, it's absolutely brilliant. So, yeah.
Kelly (30:46.686)
Yeah, it is hard work. And I think that, you know, it's like every community, I think there's aspects that come out of it that you are not necessarily what you go in for. So we've had authors launch podcasts together. They're doing work together, they're using each other's networks, we had three authors all write different books in the healthcare space. They ended up doing a series of LinkedIn lives together for like a year, I think.
Heather (30:58.562)
Yeah.
Wow!
Kelly (31:16.126)
you know, neutralizing each other's networks. So I think that's what I love about community most is the connections that you make and where those connections can take you if you're open-minded to things.
Heather (31:29.263)
So good. Are there any trends for topics that are working really, really well right now?
Kelly (31:36.958)
In terms of books? Yeah. Look, Heather, that's a really good question. I think the thing with publishing is it's really hard to predict trends these days. In the past, publishers would have looked for trends. I think just given the nature of how quick, how much data we're consuming, the time it takes to get some things to publication, what you think will be topical may not be topical by the time you get it out.
Heather (31:38.191)
Books, yeah, yeah.
Heather (31:47.492)
Yeah.
Kelly (32:06.722)
So I mean, a classic case at the moment would probably be technology. You know, like the advent of AI. I find this really interesting. I'm a judge on the Australian Business Book Awards. And there was talk this year of taking out the technology category because it's been really, you've hardly had any entries in the past. And I was like, I don't think we should do that this year.
Heather (32:26.421)
Oh my.
Heather (32:30.575)
Okay.
Heather (32:33.963)
No way. Oh my god.
Kelly (32:34.878)
And we got, you know, we kept it in and you know, there were, you know, it was far surpassed some of the other categories. And I reckon next year, there'll be even more. You know, and I had an author Donna McGeorge, so she put out a book this year on chap GPT. And the whole intention of the publisher was to be first to market on that topic. Now, there's heaps of books on that topic. But if you're writing a book now, and you think
AI is a hot topic, I'm going to rewrite my book, you got to think but is it going to be a hot topic in 12 months time? We're all probably going to be over it. So it's really hard because you have to forward think. I think definitely, you know, you'll see and you would have seen in the last 12 months, you know, resilience, mental health, anything, anything health related like that, especially in terms of mental health, I think has always been pretty popular, but is
Heather (33:11.579)
Okay.
Kelly (33:32.45)
definitely growing since, you know, since the pandemic. I think it will always sort of track around but it's topics like that, like a saturated market is a good thing because it means people are buying that topic but you need to own your little slice of the pie in that topic. And I think that's the key, you know, what makes your, it's a great topic but what makes you different in that topic? Same with finance, you know, there's always gonna be a need for finance.
but what makes you unique in that topic. So it's hard, you have to think ahead, but equally I think, you know, any publisher will tell you, no, sometimes there are really, really great books that just for some reason don't take off. And there are really mediocre books that for some reason completely take off. Yeah, it's really hard, but think ahead. And...
Heather (34:22.363)
Exactly.
Kelly (34:29.702)
Yeah, like I think that's for me why writing a book, you should never be deferred from doing it. It should be you as an intern, you know, you should be so into your topic and so into your book that you wanna write it regardless. And you're that driving force behind it. It's so important to have that internal motivator rather than be externally motivated by the market.
Heather (34:54.711)
I love that. And one distinction that you said earlier was just getting very specific to the person that you're talking to. I'd never heard anyone quite say it in the way you have, like literally, I think a lot of people, at least people in my network, they'll go out to write, they have the strategy, they'll kind of understand how it'll fit into their marketing. But then they think they're just writing broadly about the topic with strategies, tactics and tips. But the way you came in and said, really talk to that person, really know who you're talking to as well.
Kelly (35:19.36)
Yeah.
Heather (35:21.067)
layering that in, I thought was quite a brilliant conversation that you brought. So thank you for that. Um, as we wrap up, any last ideas, comments, things that you want to share around, it could be anything that we, we talked about, could be around hustle. It could be around a books trends, whatever, but what's the last closing comment from you?
Kelly (35:25.675)
No worries.
Kelly (35:40.234)
know Heather how can I help you? That would be my last comment. You know you've been so generous to open up your time and talk to me today. What's one thing that the listeners could do for you?
Heather (35:52.527)
This is a good, do you know, I've interviewed a lot of people and this is a really beautiful, interesting end. It's almost got me going, Whoa, what a question. Such a great question. Thank you for asking. My gosh. Well, I'm, I'm big into community right now too. That's why I do this podcast. Cause I want to meet really cool people and know them and get to know who they are. So I guess my thing would be, um, let's, let's stay in touch and, and continue to have conversations. And if you know anybody that.
that needs help in the sort of digital marketing website space, that's where I play. So I know my listeners know that too.
Kelly (36:25.578)
Awesome. And if you're listening in, if you think that there's a podcast that Heather should get on, then let her know.
Heather (36:32.679)
Absolutely, like yeah, any cool people bring them to me, you guys, I'm all about meeting amazing people doing good things in the world, so yeah. Excellent, thank you for asking that question, Kelly, I appreciate it. So as we wrap up, remind them, where do they go and find you again? What's your website? And if on the socials, what do they go and search for?
Kelly (36:44.034)
No worries.
Kelly (36:51.954)
Yeah, just google expert author community or you can search by my name kelly. Kelly Irving.com. Um, you can find me on LinkedIn. And that's probably where I most play. But, um, also lastly, if you do want to have a go, they want to take that first step with getting an idea out of your head, then go to Kelly Irving slash canvas is a really great tool that I use with authors first steps. How do you take an idea out of your head? You'll be really surprised at what you can come up with in 15 minutes. So
Highly recommend you head there.
Heather (37:24.119)
Everyone go, go there over this whatever weekend, weekday, whenever you're listening to this, if you've ever contemplated writing a book and going down this journey, 15 minutes, come on guys, do this. The links are in the show notes as always. And thank you so much for tuning in and listening to this or watching us on the YouTubes or the socials, wherever you're checking us out. I've been very grateful, dear listeners, for you being here. And Kelly, thank you so much for your incredible words of wisdom, you've somehow made me feel like writing a book is not only of a community but a journey that I can wrap my head around now that would make sense for anyone wanting to go into it. So thank you.
Kelly (38:03.242)
Awesome. Thanks Heather. Thanks for listening.
