Episode 11 Transcript
heather:
All right, welcome you guys. I'm really excited about this chat with Michael. I think he's one of the coolest business owners ou there.
michael:
ha.
heather:
And, but seriously, you know why? Because he's so open to being coached. Like he was just asking me the other day, Hey, do you, do you, do you, do you have business coaches? Do you get coached? And I think one of the keys in being a successful business owner is always going to that sort of thought process or belief that you never really know. everything. Actually, you just don't know everything, right?
michael:
Yeah, totally.
heather:
So, Michael, welcome to the show. It's really good to have you.
michael:
Thank you so much, Heather, for bringing me onto this podcast. It was actually one of the things that I've always wanted to do in sort of my bucket list is to just be invited onto podcasts and share the experiences that I have. And it's happened now. So yeah, thanks so much for inviting me.
heather:
You're so welcome. It's so good to have you here. So I want to start by letting the viewers, if you're watching on YouTube or the listeners, if you're on your podcast, favorite podcast platform, I want to start by letting them know a little bit about you. So talk to me about you. What does your business do? And what's your role in the business as well?
michael:
Yeah, for sure. So the business that I run at the moment is based around education in Sydney. So we do tutoring for high school students and we've decided at the beginning there was a lot of opportunity to take on a lot of subjects, whether it be economics, sciences like physics and chemistry, English. But what we decided kind of really thinking about it at the end of the day is we wanted to focus on one subject and just go really, really far and deep in our ability to be experts in helping our audience for that. And so we decided to help senior students at the moment. So year 11 and 12 students specifically for mathematics in the HSE. Of course, later down the line, we would cover a larger audience. For example, we might go down year 10 or year nine,
heather:
Hmm.
michael:
but yeah, simply said, it is to help students struggling with mathematics at school. And I am one of two co-founders that started this and our business began not not long ago October of last year so it's very recent.
heather:
Very recent and how smart of you to specialize. It's like already I'm just gonna kind of call up key things that I hear from you that I really like. That's one of them specialization, right? Key.
michael:
Yeah, I think
heather:
Why did you,
michael:
it was,
heather:
yeah, go ahead.
michael:
yeah, it was, I've been involved in tutoring businesses before where I was actually just a tutor. And
heather:
Yeah.
michael:
kind of as I progressed my journey and decided I wanted to open my own tutoring center, one of the questions I really had to ask was in a relatively competitive and saturated marketplace, is there actually a way for you to win? Because if the answer was no, then I had to just be honest with myself and say, well, it's too saturated. It's too competitive. It's better if I look elsewhere in other markets for other opportunities because I love entrepreneurship I love solving problems and helping others It was just a matter of where did I want to invest my time and doing
heather:
Yeah.
michael:
research and talking to people I think the resounding answer I got was even in a saturated marketplace you can win, but you have to be Extremely niche. You got to be really clear about who your audience is and Why exactly you can do something that even the major players cannot? and and answer to me was specialization and so that's kind of when I decided to forego a lot of even the subjects that I actually wanted to teach at the beginning and just dial down on the one.
heather:
so, so smart because anyone that scaled a business, part of the scaling process, at least to a million was
michael:
Thank you.
heather:
that
michael:
Thank you.
heather:
they decided on an area to niche or an area of specialty. So
michael:
Yeah.
heather:
yeah, makes sense. Why did you start your business?
michael:
Yeah, this is, it's a good question. I think if you had asked me when I was six years back in high school, just graduating, I would have never said I'm gonna start my own business. That was never part of the plan. It was, in fact, I was applying for like cadet ships in big four accounting firms. I was going to, you know, climb the corporate ladder classically.
heather:
Yeah.
michael:
But I think ultimately what happened was I involved myself in tutoring just as a job. And I just fell in love with education and I fell in love with helping other people. And then as I was kind of growing as a person in university, I listened to a lot of podcasts. And one thing I just really found about business owners was that they, there's a lot of ties between being a business owner and just personal development in general. And kind of like, there's so many synergies and overlaps. And I think being involved in business really you in a way to never be comfortable. Like you always have to be growing, asking questions, learning. You have to be great with people, open minded, setting goals. And I think a lot of that actually helps bring excitement and hope to my personal life. So that was why I wanted to do business. And in specifically for education, I think I just love teaching. I think naturally I do have the talents as, as, as an educator and a mentor.
heather:
Yeah.
michael:
And so it was just the perfect intersection of the two skills and And then ultimately it was knowing that as an individual person, I can have a certain scale of impact. But if I was to put myself above the technician role, not just teach directly one or two students or 12 students in a class, but how can I set up an entire company and business so that we can actually scale the impacts that we have. And I'm able to not use my skills directly, but coach other people so that I can, you know, duplicate. across other talented individuals, that is something that really excites me every day. And so, yeah, I guess an amalgamation of those reasons is why I decided to start this business. I'm going to start this business.
heather:
Yeah, I see it. Whenever I talk to you, you're just
michael:
Thank
heather:
so
michael:
you. Bye.
heather:
passionate about what you do and so hungry
michael:
Thank you.
heather:
to reach more students and just expand the business. And it's just really obvious. So it's nice to see.
michael:
Hmm.
heather:
Okay,
michael:
Tidely.
heather:
so we're going to paint a picture now of a little bit of a snapshot. So guys, Michael and I have been working together and specifically around his Facebook ads. And I think it would be great to start by painting a picture of what was your online presence like before we met.
michael:
Yeah, yeah, that's
heather:
Thank you.
michael:
a
heather:
Bye.
michael:
great starting point. So prior to meeting yourself, Heather, I was, I wanna actually go a little bit further back to really give context
heather:
Yeah.
michael:
to the people that are listening, which is I had this kind of idea that marketing was only for the big dog companies. Like marketing is only when you have a really big budget. It's when you have a whole team with graphic designers, videographers, photographers, content creators, I had this idea that marketing doesn't actually work for a lot of perhaps small businesses or it doesn't work for my specific industry because I guess the argument I was making to myself is well tutoring is all about friends right so if one student comes to you they just organically bring their whole group of friends there was almost no marketing required for that kind of organic
heather:
Yeah.
michael:
If you think about parents, how do parents bring their students to tutoring centres? One parent shares to another at a family gathering, they just talk and then there you go, suddenly you have a group of students. And so I always thought in the tutoring industry, it's all about just have really quality, high quality resources, have really great teachers that can actually teach and the rest will organically come. And that is true to some extent. But I severely undermined the power of marketing. It's actually able to do even at a really low budget. And because I had no idea what I was doing, you know, the classic thing of boosting Facebook like posts, like
heather:
Yeah.
michael:
you make a Facebook post, you boost it, or not understanding that when you're making an ad, there is technicalities behind it. What is the landing page? How are you architecting that? What is the real offer that you're making? How is your offer different to your competitors? Is the timing of your offer correct? And so I didn't know any, you know, the answer to any. of those questions or even like what metrics should we be really focusing on? And so I spent, I would say, previous to meeting yourself, maybe $2,000 on marketing and the results just never really showed for themselves. And I think it was, it was just ignorance, right? Like you just don't know how to do it.
heather:
Mm.
michael:
You don't know how to plan, how to ask the right questions,
heather:
Yeah.
michael:
how to test and I spent a little bit of money, didn't get any results, thought, yeah, this is not for me, or this is not for our industry. Maybe if I was in a different industry, marketing would work like if I was selling products, maybe it would work more than a service-based company. Was all of these kind of lies that I told myself to justify, not kind of diving further into it. And so, yeah, it was just very unstructured, ads here and there, and then for the most part, just like absence of really real marketing and just like focusing on other parts of the business. That was before meeting you.
heather:
Yeah, such a good answer. So many really interesting things in there for anyone that's listening as well, like the whole marketing doesn't work just because, you know, we as business owners, we tend to, if something's not working, we justify. We're like, it's
michael:
Thank
heather:
not
michael:
you.
heather:
working because it doesn't work in my industry or, or whatever,
michael:
Yeah.
heather:
right? You come up with all these reasons. So I love the honesty, Michael. That's really good. Talk through what we did together. So, you know, as detailed as you want to get here, because it can really help people. we actually, what was the process and the changes that we worked on together?
michael:
Yeah, for sure. I think even prior to meeting yourself, like there was a decision that I had to make. And I think as an entrepreneur, this is, or a business owner, you have to first make a decision, which is you've got to actually believe that marketing works. Because if you're not convinced that something works, you could have the best coach in the world. But what happens is you don't actually ask questions. So you can't actually get really quality answers from your coach because you're not yourself invested. And so I think first of all, meeting a coach decision and believe that marketing works but also understand that it's a process of discovering like the formula that works for your business and your audience. So that was a decision that I had to make and I thought I'm not going to just try running blind myself anymore. Like let's find someone who does this day in and day out with multiple clients from multiple industries because they would really be able to answer my questions and so that's when I kind of encountered yourself Heather.
heather:
Yep.
michael:
The project we worked on was I was trying to run a free program for high school students over the summer holidays. And so the idea was run a free holiday program, get students to sign up for that. And then if they have a really great experience, they could then inquire to stay on as ongoing students on a on a termly basis. So that was the idea of the campaign and offer. Now when I already met you, I believe what happened from memory is. I was already halfway through. So I already launched all the ads, created order copy, invested money into it, exorbitant amount of money.
heather:
Yes.
michael:
Like my daily budget was way too high for what it should have been. And the first call I remember, it was like I had a bunch of questions and it was about an audit, right?
heather:
Yep.
michael:
It was understanding what is my company and business? What is the purpose of the marketing campaign? Let's look at all the videos that you've created. Let's look at order caption And like it was just about filtering out all the rookie mistakes that you make when you don't have an expert looking over your shoulder at the beginning, right? So the dimensions of the video was wrong. It should have been five by four, but it wasn't. I didn't really have captions in the video. So anyone who's on a phone without audio, they can't hear your video. It was about creating the structure of the campaign. So we're going from there's a campaign, there's an ad set, there's an ad. What is the formula that we should use in the Facebook of today Instagram of today because the reality is going to change in six months time. But it was understanding, oh, I should actually use dynamic creatives and use, let Facebook run its algorithm and let it decide and discover the secrets to which ads actually work best. Don't try to like guess yourself. And it was just all of these things that I had no idea about. And then we went on to look at the landing page. And so you were really great with helping me review my landing page. all the way from what does it look like on a computer?
heather:
Yep.
michael:
What does it look like on a phone? When someone loads that landing page, what is the first thing they see? Do they only see a video or is there a headline with the counter, with the video, with a specific call to action? What is the setup of the first frame of that landing page? And then what is the journey as they kind of scroll through your landing page? What information should you provide them? And it was just being really scientific and meticulous about all of the details that maybe you wouldn't even think think about at the beginning. And so the first part of our coaching was really just auditing everything. And they're making all the changes. And immediately I remember the following week, the outbound click through, it was way higher. The landing page view was increasing. The cost per click was lower. And so I think that to me gave me a lot of excitement because it wasn't about, okay, just cause I work with Heather for a week, I'm going to suddenly get a hundred leads.
michael:
It was about, can her advice actually help me to. the key metrics by just a touch because that would be giving me enough evidence that if I then worked on that again and again and again eventually I will get more leads at a lower cost and eventually I would get real conversions for my business but that wasn't always a go at the beginning it was just how can we run everything a little bit better than prior to meeting yourself
heather:
There's so much in there that you said that I think is so important. One thing that you said was coming with questions, having
michael:
Hmm.
heather:
those questions ready to go. There's like a saying, you know, the quality of life that you live is a direct reflection to the questions that you ask. So
michael:
Mmm.
heather:
you are excellent with asking questions. That was good. You also said something about looking at things scientifically, which I always love to share with people. It's like the numbers don't lie. And part of what we discussed, right? Was going through the videos. You tried multiple hooks and angles and you and your co-founder did different videos and you had all this range of different content and you weren't attached to any of it, which was brilliant. You're just like, this is fun. Let's see which things perform the best. And you were like, oh, this one should be the best one. So you did, you were coming in with the right mindset of science and numbers and data and looking at from that perspective. No surprise that you teach maths, right?
michael:
Yeah, exactly.
heather:
And the other thing too is obviously you're an excellent student because the way you were talking is now like you are an expert. I mean, you walked through exactly what a mini funnel is, right? You touched on the landing page and the improvements we got on that. Do you remember the numbers for the landing page, the conversion rate that we started with, with what we ended up in the end? Do you remember those?
michael:
Yeah, yeah, so I'd love to share that actually.
heather:
Yeah.
michael:
So I don't have, I don't have all the data for the specifics, but let's keep it easy for the audience to kind of comprehend some of the changes that's happened. So I've got, I ran two campaigns with you in our time together. The first campaign I was running by myself halfway, Heather had to put out fires and just try our best to save it for the last three weeks that it was running left. So there wasn't a lot of time to optimize and improve, but we did our best there. a second campaign. Now, if I was to, if you don't mind me, I'm just going to look at some numbers real quick for everyone.
heather:
Yep.
michael:
Before I spent in the previous, I spent a total of $1,400 on that initial campaign that I ran. And I got 421 landing page views, which equated to $3.40 per lead. So the cost per lead is $3.40.
heather:
Yep.
michael:
That was the one that I ran by myself. The one that we ran after where you were really, I learned a lot from the initial coaching and then we implemented a lot of the changes and we optimized it together with a better landing page, really understanding the hooks, the type of videos I really resonate with our audience. I only used $450. So this is less than a third of the amount of money. The landing page views was 418, which is basically the same as before, which meant my cost per landing page view was a dollar. from $3.36 all the way to a dollar and eight cents.
heather:
Thank you. Bye.
michael:
And the cool thing is like the fact that I can actually say these numbers now is a testament to Heather's help in trying to force me to, hey, let's look at the numbers. Like what do the numbers actually tell you? Don't just think something is working better. Like does the number actually reflect that? From a conversion perspective, the first campaign we were able to convert around eight students. one, we've got around 15, 16 in the pipeline to convert. So we've already converted around eight as well with seven more. That's already in progress in in conversation with us. And so yeah, it's just been a massive difference from that point of view.
heather:
That is amazing. So do you have the figures on how much it cost to actually acquire a student from before versus now? Not just the cost per click and, you know, visits on the page and conversion?
michael:
The cost per lead, yeah.
heather:
Yeah, the cost per lead.
michael:
So, um, it was $250 per conversion, which for, they're, well, I didn't know what the industry standard was, but when I ran it through the numbers of my own company, that was totally fine because they're a year 11 student and they had the entire year 11 and entire year 12. So their lifetime was quite long with us. So very much a positive ROI in the recent campaign we ran. I only spent $450 overall. 8 conversions already with another 7 left to go. So if we were just to ignore the 7, just take the 8, 450, that's around $50 a conversion, a little bit more than that. So it's like one fifth the number in terms of how much it costs to actually get a student through the door enrolled with us for tutoring.
heather:
Yeah. Wow. That's huge, right?
michael:
Yeah.
heather:
That's something you get excited about because you're like, you can, you can see that working and you can scale that and keep running with that because that's, that's viable for your business, isn't it?
michael:
Yes, exactly. It was about like part of the process that made it so exciting is discovering really a formula that actually works, that you know now predictably that you can run again and again during throughout certain seasons of the year and this is how much is going to cost you for each conversion. So now you can actually project, okay, if I need X number of students or an X number of clients, this is how much marketing budget I should expect you need to allocate to first time where you launched it add to when you actually get revenue in your bank account.
heather:
Amazing. So what's next
michael:
Thank you.
heather:
for
michael:
Thank you.
heather:
you as far as your marketing? Where are you going to take all this knowledge and where are you going to go to next with it?
michael:
Yeah, for sure. I mean, I think one thing is we've got the formula that works. We'll continue making micro optimizations over the next few attempts. But the other thing that we talked about Heather a lot is all of the campaigns that we've run so far and optimized for a direct response campaign. So it is, here's a very specific offer. Are you in or are you not? You know, like it's a very strong kind of lead magnet direct response type marketing at the next stage, I think for us is through all of these campaigns that we've been running. of engagement through video views, landing page views, clicks. And so we can create custom audiences of, hey, these are people who are kind of warm to you now. Moving on, what we're going to do is try to expand that warm and warm custom audience through brand awareness campaigns. So it's not just the direct response trying to force something into someone. It's, hey, someone might have a problem. They might be aware of it, maybe cause like problem aware customers, or they might experiencing issues or that there's actually solutions out there. So it's about speaking to that audience that is maybe further away from being able to just sign up for a program. And it's building brand awareness campaigns through student testimonials or like introducing the co-founders and what is our heart and mind behind the business or who are our tutors and what makes them different, the way that we train them, the way that they teach in the classroom, what's different about them to every other tutoring centre in Sydney. And it's about building this top or funnel. campaigns, which we can then create custom audience for and then create re-targeting. And like you said, layering
heather:
Yeah.
michael:
the re-targeting as we go throughout the year. So that's definitely what we're going to be focusing on in the following stage. And I think that will support, as our brand gets more aware, kind of more aware from our target market, when we now do Google ads, like Google paid advertising and someone's searching for Matt's tutoring, they'll be like, oh, I've seen these guys before. I know what they're about from their Facebook. ads. So now there's kind of this omnipresence in the marketing that is going to happen later. But I decided early on, I didn't want to do too much. Let's just try to get one thing right first, which is direct response, understand how to even run the ad, how to set up the landing page, and then we'll progress from there.
heather:
Yeah, really smart. And when we were working together as well, we started to talk about that right? We're like, let's work out the CPA. How much is it going to cost you to actually acquire a lead? Let's work that out to the best of our ability. Because then we know
michael:
Yeah.
heather:
if it's, it's, you know, feasible for you to continue with, and then you can start to scale. And what you just said is the scaling strategy, which is the awareness omni channel. It's starting to hit the top of the funnel and find people that are not maybe ready for tutoring, right? They They're like going into your 11 and they're not, their brain's not like, oh, I need help with my maths yet, but then they have heard about you. So when they need help, guess who they're going to call.
michael:
Yeah,
heather:
So. So.
michael:
exactly. We become like the top of mind option for them.
heather:
that's exactly what it is and that's exactly what you're moving into which is excellent. Wow you've shared some really great things. Do you have any tips, key tips or things that you've learned or gotten from our work together that you want to share with our listeners?
michael:
Yeah, totally. I think one thing, there are so many that come to mind in terms of tips and advice. It really depends on what kind of what stage you are at. I think with our work together, one takeaway for the audience is this. You wanna be super clear at the beginning. It's all about setting things up. I think the better you can set things up, the better, the easier life is gonna be when we want to make optimizations and make changes and improve. So think about all of the pieces when you are creating a campaign. So you wanna define what is the purpose of your campaign, who is your target audience, so is it location targeting, is it ad targeting, is it interest targeting? So figure those things out, like create a word doc, like a Guru doc, and just write those things down. And then think about how long do you actually want to run your campaign for? Is it two weeks, is it three weeks, or is it a month? Then you wanna think about how are you gonna actually structure all of this on Facebook? So are you gonna run one campaign, three campaigns? Is it going to be one ad set, two ad sets or three ad sets? Is it going to be one ad or is it going to be just a dynamic creative? And then from that, you then want to work out exactly how many videos and how many static images you want to create. So for us, the formula that's always worked in a dynamic creative was create two videos that's less than a minute, right? So people do not have the attention span
michael:
than a minute. So two one minute videos maximum, we wanted two static images, we wanted three captions, three headlight, like so we knew exactly what was the bare-bones skeletal structure for our campaign.
heather:
Thank you. Thank you.
michael:
Once you've got that, you really planned it out, you also need to think about how many landing pages are you gonna create? Is it just a one landing page? And then on that landing page, what is the key information you want and what is the goal? Is it to fill out a form or is it to download a PDF? What is it? Once you've got that, you can then, it's all about bias towards execution. So working with Heather, I knew that I did not wanna disappoint her and what did disappointing her mean? I talked for a whole three hour session. One week later, I didn't do any of the things that she said. And so there's really nothing to talk about in the next session because you can only discover what to talk about from testing and executing and reviewing. And so have a strong bias towards execution, especially when I think working with Heather, because Heather's so good at looking at what you've done and then explaining to you, this is why it's working or this is why it's not working. Here are the things that you should For example, I remember we looked through all the videos and you just forced us to look through The first five seconds of the video like what's happening in the first three seconds What's happening in the first five seconds and then using that to understand why certain videos were doing better than others and then taking those Nuggets so that we can improve on the videos that we build later So bias towards action and when I mean that I mean Don't think you need a lot like literally all I did is I got my iPhone. I had a tripod I remember I bought a mini microphone that was an attached microphone. And there you go. You can film videos. You just talk to the camera and it doesn't matter if the videos at the beginning are great or not. It's just about putting something out there so that you can learn from it. It's about iterating. And so I think that would be the key advice. Have the framework and the infrastructure for your entire campaign, understand what you're doing and have this really strong bias towards action because it is through action that we can learn and it is through these learnings that we can actually improve on all the key metrics the goals that we set for ourselves from marketing.
heather:
Do you know there's a thing in the podcast world or the movie world called pulling out sound bites of episodes. So like
michael:
No.
heather:
little one-liners that are really excellent. I think you are the soundbite king. You probably, there'
heather:
about a hundred different one-liners that you've shared in this
michael:
Oh,
heather:
episode
michael:
God.
heather:
to be honest really that are so valuable for the listeners. I do want to ask you one last question before we shut down. This episode, or I should say this podcast is called the Hustle Rebellion and it really about working smarter in your business and growing and scaling a business that still allows you to have a joyful life that you genuinely are like, I've created this business to have a life that I want. So many people don't end up really doing that once they get into their business. So based on that, because you are so passionate with what you do, you're growing quickly. What is a tip or a couple of tips that you want to leave the listeners with on managing your business in order to have a more joyful life?
michael:
Mmm, that's a really good one because a lot of times you end up, let's say, quitting your job and then you're starting a business, but you end up actually drowning yourself in a work, being overly stressed about it. Um, and it just takes over your life rather than giving you the freedom that you desired from building a business. I think for myself, right? Cause it's hard to speak for everyone for myself. I learned that I needed to really have a clear picture. First of all, of the vision that. I'm excited about. So if there is not a future state of your business that you're excited about, I think it's incredibly difficult to go through the infinite ups and downs that you would have along the journey. And so even on the days where I feel stressed, what actually brings me to greatest joy is I know that on my worst days, if I can do one small thing to progress forward, just one step, just one step forward, I'm getting closer to a future that I'm really excited about. And just knowing that on my worst day gets me going. So that's the first thing, have a vision. Like just, I don't, you know, it doesn't have to be really clear in the sense that sometimes we just can't predict the future, but it needs to be there to some extent. The second thing that I found is, you really want to know that you could be working on your business 24 seven, but sometimes things just need time for the results to show. So let's say I was like, oh, I'm really stressed. I need to do marketing. So I'm just gonna sit here and think about marketing all day. The reality is no matter how many hours you put in a single day in marketing, sometimes you just need to give the campaign a little bit of time so that you can let your audience tell you the truth. And so it's about trusting the process in a way. And so ask the right questions. Do what you know is the most, from your understanding, the most right thing for your business. And just trust the process. And when you trust the process, then you're not holding on so tight to kind of every single long the way and that just lets you let go and say okay I know I'm pushing my business in the right direction and as long as I keep on that trajectory I'll be a okay so I can now also enjoy my personal life whether that be I want to make sure I'm gymming every day or I want to make sure I have I meet my friends on a weekends or every two week nights I'm going out and eating dinner with my partner whatever it is for me as well a really critical thing is reflection so So what I do is this year specifically, I have a very simple morning routine, but every day when I wake up, the first thing that I do is go for a one hour walk. And that does two things for me. The first part about the one hour walk is it just makes me feel really healthy, which is part of a really happy, healthy lifestyle when I'm feeling healthy. But the second thing is on that one hour walk, it allows you to just think about what's been on your mind lately, because sometimes when you're in the business of work, You don't even have the time to realize that you're over stressed. You don't even have the time to realize that you're actually really anxious for no reason or that there are all these pressures on you. And so that one hour walk is very meditative and it just gives you an opportunity to slow things down and understand how you are feeling and therefore what actions can you take. I think stress comes from when you're feeling a lot of things but you're not aware or conscious of them so you don't do anything to address and confront them. And that's what stress is. students, let's say they have an assignment and they're stressed about the assignment. The assignment is not what's stressing them. They have not directly addressed the notification, understood what the assignment was about, broken it down to create a plan. That's what stresses them. It's the uncertainty that creates stress. So for me, every morning, having the time to just kind of meditate on my walk, it allows me to think about the problems that I have and address them and therefore relieve a lot of stress.
heather:
Wow.
michael:
Oh
heather:
Yeah.
michael:
yeah, for sure.
heather:
That's great. Yeah. No, thank you. Keep going. I mean, we could probably do a whole episode on anti stress
heather:
de-stressing. What's your last tip?
michael:
I think my last tip is it's got to be I'm lucky enough in this time to be with a co-founder and the advice that I've had is don't work with family or friends. I don't know what the right answer is, but in my life working with my best friend has been the absolute best decision because with him as a really strong support network, it just means that when I am really working with my best friend, I'm not going to be able or when I am stuck in a certain mindset, I can turn to him because he's on this journey with me. So he knows exactly how I feel. And it just tends to be when there are two people, when one person's pessimistic, the other person tends to be optimistic. When one person is in a slump, the other person tends to be hopeful. And so that dynamic of having a really great friend that I know was not going to judge me on my worst days that I can be vulnerable with has really just allowed me enjoy this journey so much more. And so if you are a single founder, where you don't have a co-founder, definitely have at least one person, whether it be a really close friend or a family member, that you actually ask, hey, this is the journey that I'm on, support network is really important to me. I would love for me to have the opportunity to share what I'm going through, and for you to just be a really great listener for me. And just having that conversation that's going to make a world of a difference because they'll encourage you, they'll support you and that just brings a lot of joy in times of kind of stressing concerns.
heather:
What a beautiful way to end this episode,
michael:
Thank you. Bye.
heather:
Michael. You've just been incredible. Thank you. This conversation has been amazing. And beyond just talking about our working relationship, I think there's absolute gold in here about your way of looking at your business numbers and growth
michael:
and
heather:
and stress. So thank you so much for sharing all this information with our listeners. Thank you for being here. And here's to many more months ahead of scaling your Facebook ad successfully. Thank you. Bye.
michael:
Yes, absolutely. I'm really excited for the future. And thanks so much for inviting me. And I hope there is at least one thing that the audience can take away from it and really just transformed the way that they're doing things.
heather:
Definitely. Thanks you guys.
